Thread: Nolvadex during cycle

Is Nolvadex necessary during the following 12 week cycle?

50mg dbol ed (first 6 weeks)
350mgTest e twice weekly (700mg pw)
150mg Deca twice weekly (300mg pw)
150mg Bold twice weekly (300mg pw)
375mg HCG twice weekly (750mg pw)
50mg stanazol tabs pd (weeks 12-14)

Into the 4th week, no signs of gyno, however was wondering if estrogen levels have risen (due to higher test levels) causing more body fat.

Was wondering if adding Nolvadex would reduce estrogen, and hence body fat.

I've read that using Nolvadex on-cycle, as opposed to arimadex, may result in high estrogen bounce-back levels at the end of the cycle.

Mate i wouldnt use nolvadex during cycle unless u have abit of a gyno flair up.Arimidex would be a better choice.When estrogen is high you r more prone to putting on more fat like u said.High test and low estrogen does put ur body in a good fat burning zone.With that though is abit of a catch 22 and it depends what ur goals r with this cycle. Personally if im bulking i wont use any estrogen control as i find i get alot stronger and my joints feel alot beta with a little higher estrogen. What is ur goal with this cycle? Oh and i presume u mean IU when ur talking about hcg? 2x 250iu per week is more than enough

Whats your cycle experience? thats a fair cycle, test deca bold and stana! Quite a combo...
If you're putting fat on maybe look at your diet?

nolva's great for pre cycles.

your cycles looks fine, if its going good dont do nething just continue building muscle... focus one thing at a time, when your off and have completed your pct then look into decreasing your bf percentage.
for now just get as much MUSCLE as possible from the cycle by CLEAN bulking.

If you are doing great without it then I don't think you need to use it. With regards to whether to use Nolva or Arimidex, below is an article from William Lllewelyn taken from Muscular Development. His focus on whether to use an AI or anti E is primarily on their effect on cholesterol. Something to consider..

Written by William Llewellyn

Aromatase inhibitors are a class of medications that block the enzyme responsible for
estrogen formation in the body, and are without question powerful tools in the bodybuilder’s
drug arsenal. The common use of these agents in our sport is actually a new phenomenon,
despite the fact that drugs of this type were first developed many years ago. (Teslac dates back
to the ‘60s, for example). It seemed to take the release of Arimidex a few years ago, a selective
third-generation aromatase inhibitor noted for superior clinical effectiveness and tolerability,
to finally spark our interest. Prior to this, the anti-estrogen Nolvadex was the drug of choice
(both black market and medically), which works by blocking estrogen at its receptor instead of
actually lowering its levels.
Aromatase inhibitors and anti-estrogens produce a similar end result, namely countering the
effects of estrogen, but have two very different modes of action in doing so. It’s important to
understand that as such, there are separate advantages and disadvantages to these drugs, and
you may not want to choose one for your next cycle based solely on which is more potent. As
you will see, there are important risks, specifically regarding cholesterol, involved with
aromatase inhibitors that need to be discussed before jumping headfirst on the Arimidex
bandwagon.
Estrogen Suppression and Cholesterol
It is poorly understood that there is a link between estrogen and cholesterol levels in men. We
tend to think of this hormone as exclusively relevant to females, which is grossly inaccurate, to
say the least. Estrogen plays a vital role in the production of HDL (high-density lipoprotein; the
good cholesterol) in both men and women, and is believed similarly to play a protective role
from heart disease for both sexes. Cardiac risk relating to cholesterol is really assessed more
by looking at the ratio of HDL to LDL (the bad cholesterol) than by the total cholesterol count.
Similarly, maintaining a high ratio is looked at as a primary concern for sustaining good
cardiovascular health.
It is here that aromatase inhibitors can present a startling risk to the user, as the suppression of
estrogen in men can have profound consequences on our cholesterol ratio and cardiac risk
profile. In some instances, in fact, a drug such as Arimidex could be more dangerous than the
anabolic steroids we would want to use it with.
This suggestion may sound surprising to you, but the consequences of estrogen suppression
are actually well documented in the medical literature. A study published in 1994, for example,
demonstrated without question that estrogen is needed to support high-density lipoprotein
cholesterol synthesis in men.
In this study, a group of normal young men were given Nal-Glu, a potent antagonist of GnRH, to
suppress endogenous testosterone levels. Testosterone enanthate was given in a dose of 100
milligrams weekly to restore levels to the normal range, allowing the investigators to better
control the amount of testosterone and estrogen in the body.
A second group was given the same, plus the aromatase inhibitor Teslac, so as to produce an
estrogen deficient state. A third group was given all placebo medications. What the investigators
found was quite striking. The group of men with suppressed estrogen levels noticed a profound
drop in HDL levels, most specifically in the HDL-2 fraction. This was compared to a slight, but
not statistically significant, drop in HDL cholesterol in the TE only group, and no change in
hormonal and lipid profiles in the placebo group. The investigators were left to conclude,
obviously, that estrogen was important in maintaining HDL cholesterol levels, and may offer
protection against cardiovascular disease in men.
A second study, published a few years earlier, might perhaps come across to you as more
relevant to the steroid-using athlete.
This investigation looked at the cholesterol altering effects of 280 milligrams per week of
testosterone enanthate, when it was taken with or without (again) Teslac. The 12-week length of
intake was typical for a steroid cycle, and the dosage applied at least on the low end of what
would be considered acceptable for building muscle. The difference noticed between the two
regimens was, again, startling.
HDL cholesterol levels were not significantly altered at all with the use of testosterone only,
while they dropped 24 percent by the fourth week for those taking testosterone with the
aromatase inhibitor. For this group, levels remained suppressed for the rest of therapy, and for
a few weeks after. Based on HDL levels alone, the men in the testosterone + Teslac group were
categorized by the researchers as having a remarkably higher risk for coronary artery disease
compared to those taking testosterone only. They also noted that this study shows that
high-dose testosterone administration does not necessarily have a dramatic effect on one’s risk
for heart disease, and that aromatization to estrogen offers some protection by helping to
maintain favorable cholesterol levels. The implications for the current en-vogue practice of
routinely suppressing estrogen with aromatase inhibitors, as a way to mitigate estrogen-related
side effects, are clear.
Nolvadex and Cholesterol
But what about Nolvadex? Since it’s an anti-estrogen, wouldn’t it have the same effect on
cholesterol? The answer, surprisingly, is no. This was demonstrated well in a study that took
place in 1988 at the Netherlands Cancer Institute, which charted the cholesterol altering effects
of Nolvadex on a group of 54 women.
Noting the important role of estrogen in cardiovascular health, the investigators wanted to see if
the recently adopted practice of using tamoxifen long-term to prevent breast cancer could
present a danger to cholesterol profiles because of its anti-estrogenic action. The result,
surprisingly, was exactly the opposite of what they feared. A 10-milligram daily dose actually
increased HDL cholesterol, while simultaneously lowering LDL levels. Cardiovascular risk, as
assessed by serum cholesterol levels, was lowered instead of increased. All factors pointed to
an estrogenic effect on cholesterol levels rather than an anti-estrogenic one.
It turns out that Nolvadex is a very unique type of drug. It’s a tissue selective estrogen receptor
agonist/antagonist, meaning it exhibits anti-estrogenic properties in some areas of the body
while actually acting as an estrogen in others. One place in particular that Nolvadex actually
exhibits estrogenic activity is the liver, which is the location responsible for HDL cholesterol
synthesis. As a result, instead of lowering HDL levels, Nolvadex actually tends to raise them. It
seems our old standard anti-estrogen is still the safest option, at least where cholesterol is
concerned. In many regards it is an ideal solution really, being anti-estrogenic in tissues where it
counts, such as the breast, while acting estrogenic in one of the most important places to have
such activity. It could serve both cardiovascular protective and side-effect mediating purposes;
far different from that of aromatase inhibitors.

Thanks for the advice fellas - the cycle is working well so far. weight has increased from 96 to 99.5 over the first 4 weeks.

FYI natural sleep seems almost impossible on this cycle. This may also be due to the timings of daily supplements...

8am 20mg dbol
4pm 30mg dbol
6pm 2 scoops of Methyl Mass
630pm 4 scoops Xtend BCAA's whilst training
8pm 2 scoops Evolve Anabolic Injection after training.

Any tips for a good night's sleep?

Your taking all that gear and only gained 4kg in 4 weeks?

People do that with test alone.

Originally Posted by anthony

Your taking all that gear and only gained 4kg in 4 weeks?

People do that with test alone.

im taking it that his test is 'dosed' at 350mg per ml. more likely less then 200mg.

i did 7kg in 7 weeks on 1000mg test. weight gains has stopped though

4kg at 4 weeks with Dbol at the start, that would account for nearly all of that gain. Dbol can put on 4kg in under 2 weeks.

Keeping with the water renention theme, i find Nolva mid cycle can be very effective at taking water off very rapidly. (if only for a couple days at most)

Originally Posted by BigRig

4kg at 4 weeks with Dbol at the start, that would account for nearly all of that gain. Dbol can put on 4kg in under 2 weeks.

4kg of what though, certainly not muscle.

Abserfirckenlutely water!!! That was my point. Sorry not quite clear enough there.

Originally Posted by BigRig

Abserfirckenlutely water!!! That was my point. Sorry not quite clear enough there.

Fair enough, although, I do think the water thing is a tad over-rated. I really like dbol, and despite the water-negativity, I think it can give good results.

Look it is a great boost as the water gains, well for me in any event, are rather immediate so a great psychlogical boost. I have nothgin aginst any gear just that in the context of the cycle above and the amount of gear being used 4kg in 4 weeks would likely be put down to water atm.

Is a serious cycle but best of luck. I would review the 350mg test though???

Yep - totally agree with you fella's. I'm midway through week 7 The dbols were finished a week and a half ago - i'm still at 99.5. Strength and pump have both fallen. Sex drive has totally dropped off. I think the rest of this gear is absolute SHITE, like most gear in Australia. The dbols and stana are direct from Thailand, so gonna start the stana asap.

thats no good man.

have u been using hcg? id keep that going and try to recover.

Originally Posted by sydfella

Yep - totally agree with you fella's. I'm midway through week 7 The dbols were finished a week and a half ago - i'm still at 99.5. Strength and pump have both fallen. Sex drive has totally dropped off. I think the rest of this gear is absolute SHITE, like most gear in Australia. The dbols and stana are direct from Thailand, so gonna start the stana asap.

res100 will bring you back mate, best thing i have used when i had issues post cycle.

Originally Posted by sydfella

Yep - totally agree with you fella's. I'm midway through week 7 The dbols were finished a week and a half ago - i'm still at 99.5. Strength and pump have both fallen. Sex drive has totally dropped off. I think the rest of this gear is absolute SHITE, like most gear in Australia. The dbols and stana are direct from Thailand, so gonna start the stana asap.

Your diet or your gear may be crap.

Probably very underdosed test, and your probably shut down from the deca and eq which you shouldnt of done together anyway.

It may take long time to get your boys back, there is no magic pill

Originally Posted by anthony

Your diet or your gear may be crap.

Probably very underdosed test, and your probably shut down from the deca and eq which you shouldnt of done together anyway.

It may take long time to get your boys back, there is no magic pill

why is it not good to do them together? ive been told by a user (not seller) that they go very well together... at about 300mg each a week...

deca is fkd with me for the shut down...

and the magic pill is called viagra haha if he dont work and the missus gets cut pop 1 lol

I assume thrasha that user not seller is that bloke SWIM???

no look i dont know what u are getting at... but if u are implying what i think you are then your way off... what i was saying was that he wasnt tryin to sell me deca and eq and using himself as promotion lol.